Talk:James Howlett (Earth-807128)
Hooded Man Have there been any references to the Hooded Man or Fantastic Force for the Old Man Logan currently in Earth-616? I didn't read his Battleworld series, but Extraordinary X-Men and Old Man Logan Vol 2 make it seem like this Logan picks up after the original "Old Man Logan" arc, not 500 years later after becoming a super-hero again and raising a Hulk son. If doesn't seem like he'd be on a quest to murder Banner in the present if he thought that would wipe from existence his own adopted son, Banner Jr. Monolith616 (talk) 14:02, February 25, 2016 (UTC) :It begins far prior to that. At the start of ''Old Man Logan'', Hulk, Jr. is still an infant and Logan is raising him alongside an adult Dani Cage in Carson City. -- Annabell (talk) 14:14, February 25, 2016 (UTC) ::So shouldn't the Hooded Man be a separate article then? Monolith616 (talk) 14:44, February 25, 2016 (UTC) :::No, indicates that Old Man Logan is in fact the Hooded Man, so the only change should be that the Fantastic Four and Fantastic Force subsections should come after the Secret Wars and All-New, All-Different Marvel subsections, since the history is supposed to be listed in chronological order. -- Annabell (talk) 15:09, February 25, 2016 (UTC) ::::That sounds like it goes against the Marvel rules on time travel and divergent possible futures. If Old Man Logan isn't the Hooded Man yet, but may one day become the Hooded Man, that's just a possible future self. Just like Cyclops may one day become a cyborg leading the Summers Rebellion, but the cyborg's events don't go on Scott Summers (Earth-616). Monolith616 (talk) 15:39, February 25, 2016 (UTC) So did the address this in any way? My understanding was the Battleworld was created of fragments resembling previous realities and not the realities themselves. That would make the Old Man Logan from the Wastelands a divergent version of the original Old Man Logan, separate from the future were he becomes the Hooded Man, and so the Hooded Man of the Fantastic Force should be on a separate page from the Logan now appearing in Extraordinary X-Men. Monolith616 (talk) 19:18, May 2, 2016 (UTC) :I believe this is a policy question identical to what happened with Miguel O'Hara (Earth-928) in . At present we've kept that divergence a single article, because Marvel insists it's all the same character despite the continuity issues, just as between the two handbooks they've indicated that this is the same Old Man Logan from the same reality as before. -- Annabell (talk) 19:53, May 2, 2016 (UTC) ::It'd be different because OML came from Battleworld, though. I haven't read ANADMU, but I thought the consensus coming out of that Handbook was that God Doom didn't ACTUALLY use fragments of the realities in question, but copies or "echoes" of them (i.e., Baron Apocalypse was not from The Age of Apocalypse, Earth-295, but merely a likeness thereof). If true, then there's Logan 807128, who experienced Old Man Logan and eventually became the Hooded Man, and Battleworld Logan, who experienced a copy of Old Man Logan, but is a separate entity who can now chart his own future. Monolith616 (talk) 13:47, May 3, 2016 (UTC) :::How are we going to treat the Hooded Man section now that Dead Man Logan has come to an end?--MysteryScooby (talk) 17:18, November 7, 2019 (UTC) ::::Everything from "five-hundred years into the future of Earth-807128" should be split off and/or renamed to a TRN. -- Annabell (talk) 01:39, November 7, 2019 (UTC) :::::And then went and tied Galactus from that series directly to Death of the Invisible Woman. So it now seems the Hooded Man is indeed Logan's return post-''Welcome Back, Logan. At least we hadn't split anything yet and it simplifies things for us. -- Annabell (talk) 08:13, December 8, 2019 (UTC) Two Options As mentioned above, it seems like this a similar case as with Spider-Man 2099. While the Secret Wars Handbook states that Old Man Logan went on to be the Hooded Man, this was prior to Secret Wars. I think we have two options.... '''Splitting:' At least with this (unlike Spider-Man 2099) it's easy to figure out the divergent point. When we see Old Man Logan during the Secret Wars, Hulk Jr. is still an infant. So the diverging point probably happened after the events of . Since the Handbook states that the Old Man Logan world featured in Secret Wars is Earth-807128, I think we should assign TRN's to the 500 years in the future world where the Hooded Man hails. Alternatively... Keeping them together: We can keep them together as it is still plausible that Old Man Logan will return to his proper reality eventually. However if we're going to keep them together then everything needs to be rearranged in the proper chronological order. Meaning, everything from both Old Man Logan Vol 1 & 2 Should go between the events of Old Man Logan Giant-Size and his appearance as the Hooded Man in . We should put it to a vote. Nausiated (talk) 01:36, September 8, 2016 (UTC) :As stated above, I prefer the latter option. -- Annabell (talk) 01:52, September 8, 2016 (UTC) :I say keep it together, not much to say besides my usual argument of, Secret Wars took fragments from universes, and some of those universe had different stories due to the circumstances of Battleworld.(SunGodKizaru (talk) 01:54, September 8, 2016 (UTC)) :I vote for keeping them together. :--TMAO (talk) 02:19, September 8, 2016 (UTC) :Split. This is just like the Original Five X-Men. While at one point it may have been conceivable for them to travel back to the point they left and live out their "destined" future as the X-Men of Earth-616, it's increasingly clear that will never happen. The Wiki's given them a TRN. Similarly, it seems very unlikely Marvel will eventually send Old Man Logan home so he can "live out his destiny" of becoming the Hooded Man. He has diverged, so a new timeline (and page) is necessary. Monolith616 (talk) 12:24, September 8, 2016 (UTC) ::He could still be the same Wolverine but his future is altered in such a way that the Fantastic Four story did not happen. It seems that Marvel's rules about timeline alteration creating alternate universes does not apply anymore. Miles didn't exist in the old 616 universe until now, the history of the universe is altered yet it remains the same universe. I say it's best to keep the page as it is.--Primestar3 (talk) 19:00, September 12, 2016 (UTC) :::Yeah, and Secret Wars did affect some universe story itself, for example, the Animated X-Men Universe Earth-92131 has a whole different outlook on mutants, they were hated, but during Secret the X-Men saved everyone in the domain from Magneto, and Apolypse attack on humanity, so they started loving mutants, after Secret Wars, that change is still in effect.(SunGodKizaru (talk) 19:05, September 12, 2016 (UTC)) On the people who are looking to split the two, I just want to be sure that you're aware that Old Man Logan takes place some 50 years in the future of the Modern Age, whereas the Nu-World story-arc which features the Hooded Man, the characters come from a future 500 years hence, and a lot of that time in-between is virtually unknown. Unlike the All-New X-Men, whose length of time in the present complicated previously and well documented events, the same can't definitively be said about Old Man Logan. Also the events of Nu-World are a handful of comics, and the Hooded Man is mostly lurking in the background or not saying much. It's pretty hard -- at this point -- to see anything that would impact things so drastically that OML couldn't become the Hooded Man eventually. But for arguments sake, and this is something we're going to need to clarify if people are going to opt for splitting is this: Which reality gets a TRN? If it's voted that we go for a split, I'd say we give the least relevant version the TRN, so everyone from the "500 years in the future" get a TRN. That said, we should put a cut off time for a final decision. Lets say we make the vote final on October 31st, 2016 and go from there. Whatever side you support if you want people to speak up and vote, have them say their piece while they still can. Nausiated (talk) 20:18, September 12, 2016 (UTC) Powers Does anyone else think we should probably elaborate on Logan's abilities? I know they're basically identical to his younger self's, but maybe we should go over what he's still capable of. DCLover1995 (talk) 21:55, May 1, 2017 (UTC) :We really should. :--Geek Mangacomic (talk) ::That would just propel pages to have the same information over and over unnecessarily. ::--TMAO (talk) 12:59, October 13, 2017 (UTC) :::True, but certain pages should be exempt. One of those pages should be Old Man Logan. I realized that it says he's weaker than 616 Logan, despite beating the Maestro. We should really put his limits on his page. Also, he has somewhat different powers than 616. :::--Geek Mangacomic (talk) ::::There's no such claim in the powers section of his page. It's just written that he seemingly (as in that some things may differ) has the same powers of his Earth-616 counterpart, and that his healing factor is weaker than that of his aforementioned counterpart. ::::--TMAO (talk) 13:36, October 13, 2017 (UTC) :::::Even that's debatable, seeing as how he can resist the zombie virus, while many younger versions of Wolverine and characters with seemingly better regeneration succumbed. :::::--Geek Mangacomic (talk) ::::::Old Man Logan overcoming a zombie virus via his healing factor doesn't mean his healing factor is stronger than that of his many counterparts. ::::::* The effects of a zombie virus tend to vary from writer to writer. ::::::** Example: In ''Marvel Zombies'', the zombie virus rendered Wolverine's healing factor inert after successfully infecting him. However, in ''Marvel Zombies Return'', the same Wolverine was shown to still possess his healing factor (it just couldn't turn him back to normal). ::::::* There's more than one zombie virus in the Multiverse. ::::::Regarding his younger versions who became zombies: ::::::* It took two zombie bites (maybe even more than that) to the aforementioned Wolverine of Earth-2149 become one. ::::::* The Wolverine of Earth-Z was bitten by his Earth-2149 counterpart but was never shown transformed into a zombie. ::::::* The rest of the zombified Wolverines, like most of the other Marvel Zombies characters (independent if they are from Earth-2149 or Eart-Z or any other zombified reality), were never shown transforming into zombies. Thus, there's no way to know whether or not their healing factors tried to fight against the virus when they were infected. ::::::--TMAO (talk) 09:19, October 14, 2017 (UTC) :::::::This does raise a question: what characters qualify to have a list of powers that doesn't just say "Presumably as character Earth-616?" Because certain characters, such as Ultimate Steve, AoA Blink, and Ultimate Peter Parker have their own lists. :::::::--User:Geek Mangacomic (talk) ::::::::Blink is a unique case because Clarice Ferguson (Earth-616) was introduced simply to serve as a fatality during the Phalanx Covenant and only resurrected much later during Necrosha; meanwhile, despite only being in a few panels, she was so popular that they made her a major player in the Age of Apocalypse, and thus during that fifteen year gap where the mainstream iteration was dead, it was Clarice Ferguson (Earth-295) who was the primary Blink in publication, it was her powers that were displayed and expanded upon, and this is further reinforced by the fact that "Clarice-616" does not even have a handbook entry nor an official power grid. -- Annabell (talk) 20:39, October 15, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::Point made, but what about Ultimate characters? ::::::::::--User:Geek Mangacomic (talk) :::::::::::I don't know these characters 100% to know whether or not they would be exceptions as Blink is, but I know that there are a lot of pages here in the wiki that don't follow some of our rules for some reason or another even though they are supposed to. :::::::::::--TMAO (talk) 01:08, October 16, 2017 (UTC) Time of birth Logan was born nearly a century before his younger self? Was that intentional? --DCLover1995 (talk) 01:00, May 3, 2017 (UTC) Hair color Logan's hair is white, not gray. --DCLover1995 (talk) 02:48, May 3, 2017 (UTC) Page Locked Why is this page locked? --Geek Mangacomic (talk) 12:10, October 13, 2017 (UTC) :Because you keep re-adding the same unnecessary edits to the page every time I remove them. :--TMAO (talk) 12:29, October 13, 2017 (UTC) ::Unnecessary as in how? I only added links to the character pages. Also, locking out one of the main contributors to the page seems like a bad idea. No offense to you ::--Geek Mangacomic (talk) :::Links that are already in the page, plus a " " unnecessarily placed at the top of the page. :::--TMAO (talk) 12:59, October 13, 2017 (UTC) ::::I was actually unaware of the " " thing. May be a glitch from when I backed up the page. Also, I don't believe Kitty Pryde was on the page beforehand. ::::--Geek Mangacomic (talk) :::::But she is, you put the link for her page there, on the last line of the Inhumans vs. X-Men subsection. :::::--TMAO (talk) 13:36, October 13, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Ah, she is, huh? I don't think it was me though, it may have been somebody else. Still, I wasn't aware of that. Oops ::::::--Geek Mangacomic (talk :::::::Can we discuss unlocking this or...? :::::::--Geek Mangacomic (talk) ::::::::The lock is going to expire within two or three hours. ::::::::--TMAO (talk) 09:19, October 14, 2017 (UTC) Expanded History While the amount of effort put into the history section in this page is commendable, I find that the recounts are way too detailed. The page should be trimmed of all additional details and events save those of extreme pertinence to Logan. The description of exhaustive confrontations should be boiled down to simply mentioning the participants, the reason of the battle and the outcome, specifically how it affected Logan. Events should omit details irrelevant to Logan (example, the section ''New Brotherhood of Evil Mutants'' mentions Alex Sandstrom billing Kitty Pryde), and if Logan wasn't a key player altogether, they should be omited (or relegated to a paragraph connector). For example, Logan's participation in fighting the New Brotherhood of Evil Mutants could be condensed into two or three sentences, as well as most of his exploits as part of the X-Men. Of course, summing up the content of this page could also be accompanied by the creation of a Expanded History subpage (such as this one) where the detailed recounts could be moved so not to lose them. --The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 20:27, October 15, 2017 (UTC) :Agreed. :--TMAO (talk) 01:08, October 16, 2017 (UTC) ::Please define what you mean by too detailed please. Would the Secret Empire section count as redundant? And would we only have the most important moments in Old Man Logan's life recorded on the main page? ::User:Geek Mangacomic (talk) 6:15, October 18, 2017 (UTC) :::In a similar way to a character's entries in handbooks, the history text in articles should be concise. Putting too many details can create a dragging experience for a reader. I'm going to focus on X-Men: Gold and Weapon X because those are the only titles featuring Old Man Logan I read: ''New Brotherhood of Evil Mutants'' makes reference to the barely-touched financial issues moving the X-Mansion to Central Park caused, and Logan's encounter with Mesmero even recounts some banter from the fight. ''Sentinel Swarm'' mentions the circumstances of 0101's origin, and also that Logan specifically assisted firefighters. ''Weapons of Mutant Destruction'' touches upon Logan and Sabretooth having a coffee break. :::Regarding Secret Empire, that section could be omitted. As for the second question, yes. The main page usually should only feature the most important moments in a character's history. --The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 23:36, October 18, 2017 (UTC) ::::Everything about this sounds fine to me, though I feel like it's more convenient to have all the info on a single page. Also, would an "Expanded History" page allow for Logan to have his own list of powers, similar to Ultimate characters or Age of Apocalypse Blink? Also, how does one access the Expanded History page without a link? ::::--User:Geek Mangacomic (talk) 7:59, October 18, 2017 (UTC) :::::No, Expanded History pages are used just for characters' histories. When an Expanded History page is created, a link to it is added to the top of the history section of the page they pertain to. :::::--TMAO (talk) 03:38, October 19, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Oh, alright. ::::::--User:Geek Mangacomic (talk) 6:16 October 19, 2017 (UTC) :::::::Can somebody make the Expanded History page? :::::::--User:Geek Mangacomic (talk) 4:01 October 19, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::Here it is. I've also linked it at the beginning of the history page of the main article. --The ADdour-incible ADour (talk) 21:36, October 19, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::So what articles should I move over to the expanded history page? :::::::::--User:Geek Mangacomic (talk) 5:42 October 19, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::I've already moved everything. All that remains now is to trim down the history section of the main article. --The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 21:58, October 19, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::What should be taken out? :::::::::::--User:Geek Mangacomic (talk 6:01, October 19 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::::Bump. ::::::::::::--User:Geek Mangacomic (talk 11:36, October 20 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::::I would leave that at your own discretion, using previous suggestions as sort of guidelines. Essentially, the history text should present only those events of extreme relevancy to Logan, and the events touched upon should be talked about in broad strokes. --The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 03:57, October 21, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Sorry, but one last question. Should the Hooded Man arc go under expanded history? ::::::::::::::--User:Geek Mangacomic (talk 8:43, October 21 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::::::Yes. While pretty obscure, it's indicative Logan lived to the year 2509 and seemingly returned to his original reality. --The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 14:59, October 21, 2017 (UTC) Picture Change Just thought I’d explain the change in the page’s primary picture. I’ve changed it so it conveys Old Man Logan’s recent loss of Adamantium in his right hand and claws. --User:Geek Mangacomic (talk) 14:02, February 22, 2017(UTC) :Unnecessary; many stories set after the events of his title depict him with Adamantium on his right claws. Plus, that image isn't full body and you're inserting it in the wrong way (there is no need to put the file's name inside this: ). :--TMAO (talk) 21:04, February 22, 2018 (UTC)